Mark Messina, Ph.D. - the Interview

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Not-Just-Recipes was privileged to interview Mark Messina, PhD. We asked some of the questions our readers have had and he was kind enough to provide his perspective.

Mark Messina, Ph.D., M.S., is the co-owner of Nutrition Matters Inc., a nutrition consulting company; an adjunct associate professor at Loma Linda University; and the executive director of the Soy Nutrition Institute. He is a former program director with the National Cancer Institute (NCI), where he initiated a research program on the anticancer effects of soy. Since leaving the NCI, Dr. Messina has devoted his time primarily to the study of the health effects of soy foods and soybean isoflavones. He writes extensively on these subjects and has published more than 50 articles and book chapters for health professionals. He has also given more than 400 presentations to both consumer and professional groups throughout the United States and in 35 countries.

Dr. Messina is the co-author of three books, The Simple Soybean and Your Health, The Vegetarian Way, and The Dietitian’s Guide to Vegetarian Diets: Issues and Applications.

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The Interview

NJR:
Thank you for the opportunity to interview you Mark.

Since we are a vegetarian website, a lot of our recipes call for the use of soy products in one form or another. Lately it seems that there has been some controversy regarding the validity of soy as a healthy alternative. I know these are probably questions you've had to deal with quite often but for the benefit of our readers who may not be familiar with your work I'd like to discuss that aspect with you briefly.

NJR:
Is there any validity to the reports that soy raises estrogen levels or simulates the same effect, thereby increasing risk of certain diseases such as breast cancer?

Dr. Messina:
No, soy doesn't raise estrogen levels. This was conclusively demonstrated by a comprehensive statistical analysis of the clinical (human) studies published in 2008.

Soyfoods do contain isoflavones, which belong to a group of naturally-occurring plant chemicals that are classified as phytoestrogens (plant estrogens). Isoflavones have some estrogen-like properties but they differ from the hormone estrogen.

The only research to raise concerns about breast cancer was conducted in rodents. Isolated isoflavones stimulate the growth of estrogen-sensitive mammary tumors in mice that have no ovaries or immune system. However, whole soyfoods don't have this effect. More importantly, neither isoflavone supplements nor soyfoods have adverse effects in human breast tissue. This has been shown in more than 10 studies that have measured either breast tissue density or breast cell proliferation. Both of these measures are indicators or markers of breast cancer risk. Furthermore, a recent epidemiologic study from China showed that breast cancer patients who consume soy have a better prognosis than women who consume little soy.

NJR:
Do you think it's true that only fermented soy products such as tempeh or miso are safe to consume as a regular part of a vegetarian or vegan diet?

Dr. Messina:
No, there is nothing to support this recommendation. Fermented soyfoods were the first soyfoods to be consumed, but historical records indicate that non-fermented soyfoods such as tofu have been consumed in Japan for at least 1000 years. Today, about 50 to 60% of the soy consumed in Japan is in the non-fermented form. In China even more soy is consumed in non-fermented forms.

Claims that fermentation increases soy protein digestibility and mineral absorption don't have much scientific support. Besides, the digestibility of soy protein from non-fermented foods such as tofu is quite high anyway. Plus, calcium is very well absorbed from calcium-fortified soymilk and calcium-set tofu. Also, new research shows iron to be very well absorbed from soy. On the other hand, tempeh and miso, which are two of my favorite soyfoods, are underutilized in the United States so I like to encourage their consumption.

NJR:
It's also been said that a large percentage of soy is genetically modified and also has some of the highest levels of pesticide contamination of any mass produced crop. Can you tell us anything about that?

Dr. Messina:
The United States grows about 40 to 50% of the world's soybeans and most of those are genetically modified. Most of the soy grown in the United States and around the world for that matter is used for animal feed, though. I believe genetically modified soybeans are perfectly safe, but this is an issue that is outside my area of expertise. For those who are concerned, though, there are many non-genetically modified soyfoods on the market.

NJR:
I've read some articles from pretty well respected organizations such as the Mayo Clinic, that tout health benefits of soy and others that take a negative stance on soy. How do our readers know who to believe?

Dr. Messina:
Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to this question. A lot of nutrition information on the internet in particular, but also in magazines and newspapers, is sensationalized.

And just because scientific references are cited in support of a particular argument doesn't mean the article is accurate. Consider that more than 10,000 soy-related articles have been published in medical journals within the just the past decade. With that vast amount of research, it's always possible to dig out a tiny minority of articles that support just about any viewpoint in the world. It's not easy to evaluate this much research and it requires evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of individual study designs and results. Clearly, when evaluating a nutrition claim, most of the emphasis should be placed on the results from human studies.

Recognize also that it is actually quite difficult to conclusively prove that a particular food has specific health effects beyond the nutrients it provides. When you see articles talking too definitively about a particular food (or diet for that matter) that should be a sign to treat that information skeptically.

NJR:
There is an old axiom that states..."In all things, moderation." Wouldn't that be a good position to hold with soy in our diets as well as other things? I guess I'm asking if you think there is a safety threshold in terms of consumption on a daily or weekly basis.

Dr. Messina:
Well moderation is just about impossible to define. But we can look at habits in countries where soyfoods are common to get some understanding about what constitutes moderation for these foods. In Japan and Chinese cities such as Shanghai, soy intake averages about 1.5 servings per day. However, in those locations, those who consume above average amounts - 2- 3 servings per day - tend to have lower disease rates that those who consume lower amounts of soy. So two to three servings a day seems like a reasonable amount.

NJR:
It appears to us that the jury may still be out relative to the whole soy controversy. So, let's change the subject for a moment. Do you have any advice, in general, for people who are considering eating healthier?

Dr. Messina:
I certainly don't agree that the jury is out-but I'm happy to answer your question about eating healthier. I think the scientific evidence supports advice to eat mostly plant foods-maybe as much as 90 percent of the diet. We don't have data to show that a 100% plant diet is the only healthful way to eat. But we do have data showing that it is safe to eat a completely vegan diet. And of course, there are compelling reasons to eat that way from ethical and environmental perspectives.

And no matter how healthfully we eat, good nutrition can do only so much. Many factors impact health and it's hard to out swim your gene pool.

NJR:
Hmm…good point. What about supplements? We have all heard that vitamin B12 is probably the one vitamin that we, as vegetarians and vegans can't get from our diets. Yet there is evidence that many of the supplements on the market are simply not needed and are usually sloughed off by our bodies anyway. It's sort of like we are wasting our money buying them. What do you think?

Dr. Messina:
It's true that some mega-doses can be a waste of money. If the body doesn't need some nutrients, they are simply excreted. But if we do need the nutrient-which is the case for vitamin B12 in vegans-then supplements are beneficial.

NJR:
Can you tell us a little bit about your diet? Are you strictly vegan? What are some of your favorite foods?

Dr. Messina:
Vegan at home and I try on the road.

NJR:
Finally - can you impart any words of wisdom or encouragement, especially to beginning vegetarians or vegans?

Dr. Messina:
I would say to put most of your emphasis on whole plant foods, but for the sake of convenience and taste, it's fine to have some processed foods like meat analogues and to enjoy desserts and snack foods. It's what we do most of the time that counts.

NJR:
Dr. Messina, thank you so much for consenting to this interview. It has been very informative and interesting.

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